Chimera Kennels

I am curious how others would deal with this pup as a working prospect. I have hand raised a real nice looking chocolate brindle bandog from 5days on, I have hand raised many large breed and small breed pups as single pups and entire litters over the last 10 plus years, never once really seeing any differances in character or development other then maybe some growth being a bit behind early on.

Now I have this pup who is from a rather nasty dominant bitch whos dam is also the same way. She is now 6 weeks and is willing to eat anyone picking her up most times, she wont stay off your legs as she wraps her forarms around and sounds vicious and actually acts like she is truely nasty.

I have been taking her from her kennel on a harness for better control when she has her out of pen time and take her around play with her and teach her small things. With the harness I have less agression , she fears nothing and for most part I am ignoring her attitude as I believe she will begin to fall into place as she begins training.

Do you think raising her this way without trying to force my rank back on her will bring her down a few notches to a managable place? I dont want to break her spirit, She is way confident and I think she will work out but is cleary not a dog for just your everyday joe.

How would you all raise a very dominant pup? Thanks

This doesn't necessary equal dominance. It could just be fiesty energy, a generally mouthy dog, and prey drive...and a desire to work.

Dominance is about position and rank. Is she "humping" the objects she is attacking...or is she just "fighting" and "killing" the objects?

Before I answer any more, I would like that question answered...as the additional information will influence my response.

fighting and killing, no humping. she will chase your legs non stop and when you try to get her off by pushing her back or picking her up she sounds and looks like she is gonne kill ya.

First off I'm not a big fan of overly dominant dogs, and I don't like rank based agression, but that's just me. I guess it depends on what you want to make out of her, I'm guessing a PP\bitework dog. I can see why you don't want to hurt her confidence. I made that mistake.  I have a bitch who was more dominant than I like, and I used the "dog whisperer" method to turn her into a calm submissive dog. Now she'll back off a bite if I step towards her and it did hurt her confidence.  I'm in the process now of building her back up.  Having learned my lesson I have a dog who's 7 months old.  He wasn't rank driven at all and while I keep him in the follower possition, I did early work to build his sense of his own power and ability. He is a very confidant dog and doing great in his PP training. So you can have/make a dog submissive and confident. So I would bring her down a few knotches untill she knows to listen to you then maintain her sense of being stronger than people but not you.

I personally wouldn't have a overly dominant dog at least not in my house or around children or anyone sick or in any kind of weakened state. The last thing you want is something as powerful as a bandog desciding that you need to be corrected if you're submissive, or that it's time to take over the pack by violence if you're not. That's the main thing I don't like about rank agression, the second is the tendencey to cur. It's rare to see a well treated, well trained dog whose agression is prey/defence/fight drive based see a toddler as prey/threat/opponent, but kids (at least mine) tend to like to climb all over dogs and that can be a lethal danger with a rank agressive dog.

Right now I have a puppie who is 12 weeks old (she's actually the isabella merle you liked from the chicken on a string test). She's showing prey, defence, and moderate rank drive. My plan for her is to build her prey/defence/fight drives and gently nudge down her rank drive, though she's agressive with her siblings, she submits readily to me and my older dogs.

I only read the first post when I answered. If it's not over dominance it might be over defence drive. I saw a puppy that was half neo half dane who at eight weeks you couldn't touch him much less pick him up, or you'd be missing fingers.I don't know how he turned out but I'd bet he's completely unstable.

If she is showing fight drive then I'd give her an outlet, that way you can hopefully redirect the drive without reducing it.

Angie, if there is not humping or posturing...but just "ACTION"...that doesn't sound like "dominance." It sounds like a pup showing potential for fight drive. Try something like what is seen in this video...and let me know how it goes. If the pup acts like this, then it sounds like you may have a good prospect. http://www.chimerakennels.com/ChimerasRecess8wks.wmv

Nice pup Lee, is she a newer pup or a past pup? I will test her and see how she reacts soon, Thanks again.

David, yes Isis still has those wild eyes. I have fairly recent pics on the wmbo forum. I bet your guys are getting large:)

Angela

That is an old video.

I'm glad to hear it, Isis is going to be a great looking dog, I look forward to seeing her grown.

Oh yes, mine are getting big between 30 and 40 pounds they turned 13 weeks today. I'll put some pictures up on my blog soon. I do have a video up of the three I'm keeping encountering a spring pole for the first time. If your agressive lil pup does like in lee's video I'd love to see it too.

Thank you, I absolutely love her and must say that a part of me has fallen in love with something about the great dane just the same way I feel inside about the pitbull and many bandog examples that stick in your mind.

I am a bit suprised as I never saw them as a dog I would own. Its a shame that they have become close to useless as workers however I think with careful selection the pleasing positive traits of the breed can be retained in a program. Isis is only 1/4 dane but has that dane character, I absolutely love her. Her nik name is baby, lol

Did you see her most recent pics on the wmbo forum?

I saw some newer pictures with her ears cropped, she's going to be a beautiful girl. what's the other 3/4? I have a young male who's also 1/4 dane and I'm very happy with him. I'll post some pictures of him soon.

the other 3/4 is english mastiff, however he is not from show lines and was actually what the breeder refered to as a silver fawn he had a blue mask and weighed 245lbs. He is said to be akc. Who knows I liked the temp of both parents and structre, I did not care so much what they were.:)

what color(s)/pattern(s) do you think Isis is?

I'd guess she's a harl with a wild mask. English mastiff masks go nuts sometimes and sprinkle black hair along the rest of the coat, some of the swinfords are that way, But I bet she's a harl rather than just a merle and thats what makes everything else so white. I've seen swinfords that had wild mask and blue, it's an interesting color but the base is still fawn, not white. That's why I think she's a harl. Was one of the parents the same way?

Just in case someone is confuse...there is no merle or harlequin in any of the American Sentinel (nor in any of the original Swinford) blood lines.

To get harlequin, one has to have a "merle" gene...which is linked to other problems in a "double merle" state...and this is the only reason I have never used any merle or harlequin in our program...and plan on never doing so.

Although merle is a dominant gene and fairly easy to select against...the Swinford has always been a program about performance...and that being the case we have never used merle dogs. Once merle is used, you have to "watch the color" to make sure you don't combine two merles or a merle and a harlequin together. Some times there is a merle that is "hiden" when a dog doesn't show much spotting. I don't want to worry about color. I want to keep it about performance...in and out.

That said, yes there have been a few blues and a few blue-fawns...but they are from "dilute" genes and not merles.

Yes David, English Mastiffs come in two colors Fawn(buckskin) with black masks and Brindle, so it's not just the masks "going nuts." It's how the Swinfords were bred. Take a look at Bantu on this site, the first Swinford he was brindle. An to go along with what Lee and david said white is not the base of fawn, that said "blues" were created breeding black and fawn dogs. 

Hey lee was that one of your pits or swinfords? nice little pup btw....

Right, I should have been a little clearer.

The traits I was referring to that I've seen in swinfords were, dilute as in a blue dog, and wild mask. That's just natural variation from one mask to another. Some dogs have very clean masks that are only on the face and ears, like pugs. Some dogs masks extends to the tail or along the back or even under the belly, sometimes it's a dark mask as is normal on the face, and sometimes it's a mix of light and dark hairs, when it's on the body.

Blue fawn is typically a blue dog with a wild mask giving a mix of fawn and blue hair over the face and body. Neither of those genes have been linked to any health problems.

Merle and Harl however can create health problems. If bred with merle and/or harl in both parents, double merles can be born blind or deaf and double harls don't survive birth. Thats why when you see Great Dane breeders breeding harls together to get a whole litter of harls, you know how much they know/care about their dogs. The biggest danger to making merle "hidden" is if your running merle and recessive red in the same line because red doesn't merle, and if a red dog who is has hidden merle is bred to a merle it will create double merles. Luckily there is a gene test available for merle now, so if it really came down to it I would just use that. Which it may well do, considering I've got red Bordeaux and merle Dane in my line.

As a side note for anyone confused, If you think you've seen a "red merle" it's actually a brown dog with merle, people just call it red merle. And a blue merle is actually a black dog with merle. And to further confuse things you can also add dilute to the mix and make a blue dog with merle (which is really pretty pale blue with blue spots) and a diluted brown "issabella" dog with merle (which is champaign colored with light brown spots). In fact I had some in my recent litter.

Actually Max, blue (dilute) is it's own gene on the D locus. It's recessive so it could be carried by a black and by a fawn, so I can see how you would get confused.

As far as brindle goes thats not what I was referring to as wild mask. Brindle is stripes and that gene is located on the K locus along with dominant black and "non-black" (which lets the A locus show)

The A locus is where fawn is located, and mask is on the E locus along with recessive red.

Wild mask is what Cappo, (I'm not sure how his name is spelled) and Lucile have, and I think even Champ has it. It's the dark patched on the chest and behind the shoulders. That's what I'm calling wild mask, because that's caused by the mask being out of it's "normal" position but it's still the mask.

If it's stripes then it's brindle whether they are black or blue or even brown. Blue brindle and blue fawn can look alot alike, you just have to look at the shape of the blue area to see if they it's striped or not.

If your interested in coat color genetics I can point you to some good reading.

Another good example is the big picture at the top of Lees pups for sale page. The left most pup is fawn with a wild mask, see how the mask has "spilled" on to the rest of the coat. If it had been homozygous for blue as well it would have a blue face and the black hairs in it's coat would also be blue. The next pup over is fawn with a "clean" mask it's only on the muzzle and ears (at least it looks that way in the picture), and the other three are brindles, which have masks themselves.

I think someone already asked...but how you handle this pups aggression will largely be dependant on your ultimate goals.  I don't like to squish pups if they are to be used for any type of grip work.  However, I personally would look hard and honestly at such a young pup displaying what you describe and try to determine where it's coming from.  What triggers the outbursts?  Will the pup redirect onto toys?  Can you take food or toys without the display?  Does the pup let you handle the entire body from tip of tail to nose and everything inbetween without major struggle?  Have you begun any type of obedience?  Is the pups smart, average or dull?

Lee - LOVE the pup video!   What a little gem!   Did you say you kept that one?  If so, how is s/he progressing in your program?  Would love to see some more photos/video if available?

Leri