Chimera Kennels

I'm sure this has been beaten around many times, so if there is a good discussion already archived then please point me to it!

I can definitely appreciate the differences and overlap between a good sport dog and a good personal protection dog, But I want to focus on just PPDs.

Anyone care to generalize (as dangerous as that is!) on the qualities of the more common protection breeds and compare them to the qualities of a Swinford??? :o)

Here's my very CRUDE take (working dogs only...obviously) on the general characteristics of all but the Swinfords (as I don' have ANY experience with them):

GSD

Advantages:

- MANY lines to choose from

- drives are easily distinguished while working

- adaptable

- forgiving of handler/helper errors

Disadvantages:

- some dogs can get compacent with the work

- quite socially aggressive

- very vocal (disadvantage in home PP setting)

- physical problems in many lines

MAL

Advantages:

- PREY DRIVE

- very handler oriented

- determined

Disadvantages:

- can be to sharp

- very difficult to keep content (over achiever!)

- many dogs can be very small

DOB

Advantages:

- very handler oriented

- alert and suspicious nature (out of the box)

- quiet

- can get a very natural fighting drive from the good ones

Disadvantages:

- very few decent working lines with real strength (hardness)

- needs a lot of excercise

- not cold tolerant

ROTT (I don't have as much experience as the other breeds)

Advantages:

- size (can apply some real hurt!)

- quiet

- does not need the constant outlet required by the other breeds

Disadvantages:

- very few decent working lines with real strength (hardness)

- very socially aggressive

- can be somewhat "lazy" in its work and not take much initiative

PLEASE feel free to disagree or add other points you may feel important which I have missed.

More importantly though, please give me your take on what you feel are the advantages/disadvantages of Swinfords (or any other bandog mix, bulldog, APBT, etc.)

Just trying to get some good discussion going

I agree with your assessment of the above breeds, but I would also add rank drive issues in the "social aggression" area...as some of the specimens in the above breeds are not just sociallly aggressive to strangers, but in some cases will often "bite the hand that feeds them" in order to claim status (especially with less experienced handlers).

Concerning the Swinford...

Strengths

1. Good pack instinct (desire to be with master without being troublesome or anxious)

2. Handler oriented

3. Brute force

4. Fight drive

5. Prey and Defense drives both without being annoying, troublesome, or worrysome

6. Very durable and powerful

7. Generally, a very clean dog

8. Generally quiet unless alerted

9. Adaptable

Disadvantages

1. Some look like oversized APBTs which can cause prejudice assumptions from uninformed public

2. Some are a bit handler sensitive to family membes (not sensitive to strangers though. This helps in the stability department when with the family, but can cause set backs in training when working with heavy handed owners. Using motivational techniques, this isn't a problem.

3. Some can be dog aggressive with other dogs of the same sex. With close observation, this is typically manageable, but I wouldn't trust two mature dogs of the same sex well enough to be left unattended.

Lee, how would you compare the health of the Swinford with the health of the dogs mentioned above?

Fortunately, we haven't had any health problems in our dogs. I have seen two dogs with a hip issue, but given that wee have probably produced about 200 dogs in the last decade that would only be about 1% of our dogs...which isn't a genetic concern. I also saw one that had a pastern growth problem during its development (bad nutrition IMO was to blame) and the dog grew out of that when it was given better nutrition. I have seen one APBT from the Mayday breeding we did that had a skin issue, but we haven't ever had that problem with any of our Swinford dogs. This is unusually good health in comparison to most breeds today, in fact, I would say it is highly unprobably to do any better than that. I think this is for three primary reasons. 1. We used excellent foundations, 2. Our performance selection (physical testing and heath testing) would eliminate any significant issues, and 3. If I found a dog with an issue it would be removed from the program.

chimerakennels at 07:15AM on Mar 11, 2010

Fortunately, we haven't had any health problems in our dogs. I have seen two dogs with a hip issue, but given that wee have probably produced about 200 dogs in the last decade that would only be about 1% of our dogs...which isn't a genetic concern. I also saw one that had a pastern growth problem during its development (bad nutrition IMO was to blame) and the dog grew out of that when it was given better nutrition. I have seen one APBT from the Mayday breeding we did that had a skin issue, but we haven't ever had that problem with any of our Swinford dogs. This is unusually good health in comparison to most breeds today, in fact, I would say it is highly unprobably to do any better than that. I think this is for three primary reasons. 1. We used excellent foundations, 2. Our performance selection (physical testing and heath testing) would eliminate any significant issues, and 3. If I found a dog with an issue it would be removed from the program.

Glad to hear you put a strong emphasize on health! To me, it is one of the most important factor, if not THE most important! What good is a dog with great temperament, great drive, great power, etc., if the the dog starts getting sick at an early age?

I find that breeders tend to avoid the health subject much too often, which is a pitty. I'd rather deal with a breeder that honestly tells me some of the health problems he's seen in some of his dogs, and that also explains how he has been  breeding that out of his program over the years. Breeders that don't bring out that subject should know that buyers aren't fully ignorant, and that they know their is no way a dog breeding program can be free of health issues 100%. Thanks again for not trying to avoid the converstation, it shows you have confidence in your program.

Thanks for the candid answer Lee.

Don't talk to me about a dog sensitive to the handler!! ....I train Dobermans!  An you're right, this can be a very great disadvantage to many novice handlers or a handler who tends to lose their temper as you can easily crush them if they think you are their universe!

When you say that some of the dogs may be dog agressive with the same sex, do you mean say Swinford male to Swinford male....or Swinford male to say a male beagle?

Had a look at your video page and really like the fighting drives I see from Preacher and Levi   I really liked what Levi showed while working in the boat...that decoy nearly left a piece of himself there! hmy:

Do you do much environmental training as I didn't see much from your videos (except for Levi in the boat)?  I find this is the easiest and most harmless way to judge how hard a dog is. 

Without any crazy prey to "entice" the dog, it persues through the unknown and fights the unfamiliar....or not

I would say Swinford male to any other "dominant" or "fight" like male...of any breed. And, although I have reason to be there wouldn't be a problem with a a male swinford getting along with a small "puppy" like non-aggressive male dog like a shitzu or something, but even then though, I wouldn't recommend leaving two adult males unattended...because if there was a problem it would be fatal.

I prefer a dog that doesnt "notice" the environment (by that I mean doesn't express any concern about new environments). That video with Levi was the first time he was ever in a boat believe it or not. Lucile's first time in a boat she actually saw some wildlife at the reservoir and jumped in to pursue it. LOL. She reminded me of the guy leaning over the bow in the titanic movie as she seemed to act like she owned the boat. It was funny. I like dogs like that.

Hi big shrimp,

     I somewhat agree with most of what you said except for the rottweilers, 1 if you mean uncontrollable in the presence of strangers by very socially aggressive then its either a factor of bad training or bad breeding-please check this site...www.hexental.be..the rotties here are an example of the true working rottweiler-good fight drive but still friendly when there is no threat like any working GSD. Also concerning laziness i think the show bred dogs are heavier and really lack endurance. But the working lines are very fairly good workers,also check that site there is a picture of one rottie there URAN jumpinga 2.10 metre fence. The austrian army uses only rottweilers .I  hope you get my point. I agree that there may not be as many working rotties as say GSDs but a good working rottie IMO is the best thing since sliced bread...lol. Thanks for the post anyway.

"Best" at what? Although I have seen a few rotts that were good dogs, they were atypical. I never recommend a rott as a family protector because of their rank drive. They do however make good sentry dogs.

Hey Tobi, social aggression is an active (not reactive) aggression stemming from competition over "things" (food, the couch, etc.).  Rank driven dogs are by nature very socially aggressive.

It's hard to describe what I mean by "lazy"....as it has nothing to do with weight or physical activity.  The Rotts I have worked all tend to need some very heavy confrontation or be built up very high in prey to get some decent work from them (very high threshold for stimulus).

Again though, I have personally only worked about 10 diferent Rotts so my personal experience with them is limited.  However, my observation has been validated by a few experienced helpers.

Understand though, I am not saying they are bad dogs at all, and in fact some people have been able to take Rotties to the highest level.  I am just addressing the points you were questioning in your response.

I think the rank drive issue has to do with the lines. I agree that most of the outstanding rottweilers are atypical but i think there is still 'hope' for the breed, not sure if you checked the site i mentiioned[www.hexental.be]. Anyway these are just educated opinions of mine and posssibly some bias because of my love for the breed. Thanks for the input sirs.

chimerakennels at March 10, 2010 at 6:25 PM

I agree with your assessment of the above breeds, but I would also add rank drive issues in the "social aggression" area...as some of the specimens in the above breeds are not just sociallly aggressive to strangers, but in some cases will often "bite the hand that feeds them" in order to claim status (especially with less experienced handlers).

 

Concerning the Swinford...

Strengths

1. Good pack instinct (desire to be with master without being troublesome or anxious)

2. Handler oriented

3. Brute force

4. Fight drive

5. Prey and Defense drives both without being annoying, troublesome, or worrysome

6. Very durable and powerful

7. Generally, a very clean dog

8. Generally quiet unless alerted

9. Adaptable

 

Disadvantages

1. Some look like oversized APBTs which can cause prejudice assumptions from uninformed public

2. Some are a bit handler sensitive to family membes (not sensitive to strangers though. This helps in the stability department when with the family, but can cause set backs in training when working with heavy handed owners. Using motivational techniques, this isn't a problem.

3. Some can be dog aggressive with other dogs of the same sex. With close observation, this is typically manageable, but I wouldn't trust two mature dogs of the same sex well enough to be left unattended.

Finly found this im new to this site somewhat, this helps me alot thankyou