Chimera Kennels

I believe the ideal dog for manwork to be somewhere around 75-110#. I don't prefer dogs over 120# max or under 65# for my needs, but such dogs have their place. Smaller than that you lose durability and power. Larger than that and you lose speed, agility, and endurance.

This question is better asked as a what is your opinion ? .Because their are always exceptions to the rules, and every dog is an individual. Here is a 45# -50# dog taking a 300# man. Size is not the deciding factor the quality of the dog is what counts. Bigger is not better.JMHO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYErjneazQw&feature=related

Engaging a man and stopping a man are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

For police an military dogs, where dogs are assisted by trained professionals, an apprehension dog is often smaller and quick not to stop the man, but to distract him and slow him down until "back up" gets there to assist.

A PP dog may have to work alone, as most women (not all) and kids typically don't offer much in terms of support.

In other words, for ME...I prefer a dog that is capable of stopping a man. For that to happen, you have to have some mass and strength.

chimerakennels at February 17, 2011 at 2:58 PM

Engaging a man and stopping a man are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

 

For police an military dogs, where dogs are assisted by trained professionals, an apprehension dog is often smaller and quick not to stop the man, but to distract him and slow him down until "back up" gets there to assist.

A PP dog may have to work alone, as most women (not all) and kids typically don't offer much in terms of support.

In other words, for ME...I prefer a dog that is capable of stopping a man. For that to happen, you have to have some mass and strength.

Love that video, what a good dog!

If I had to choose between two great dogs that have the same drive and heart to protect my family from a huge crazy man, and let say one dog is 60lbs and the other is 80lbs, I would go for the 80lbs dog. That extra 20lbs is crucial for some extra mass and strength, and yet 80lbs is still not too big to take away agility and stamina from the dog. 

I highly doubt  a 300#man (Brock Lessner ect.. excluded)  would even posses the stamina to fight off a dog.lol.Again we  are dealing with what ifs'.

Ben at February 17, 2011 at 9:51 PM

I highly doubt  a 300#man (Brock Lessner ect.. excluded)  would even posses the stamina to fight off a dog.lol.Again we  are dealing with what ifs'.

no hed probaly just choke a little 45lpb dog out in a matter of mins, honestly if i had a choice to be locked in a cage with that dog in the vid or a dog like cesar, id bet my money id have a better chance against that 45 50lpb dog in the video... jmo   just want to add i am not saying I can take that dog in the video lol , i am saying i think my chances would be better.

Ben, I had a dog come at me once. It was about 55# APBT. Of course I had one MAJOR advantage being I had already had experience working dogs...so I used that to my advantage. I presented a target with my left arm for the dog and she went for it. As she did, I esquived the bite and then grabbed the dog by the collar with my right hand as it passed by. Held her to the ground, switched hands on the collar, and then gave it a few jabs to "change her mind." When I let her up I gave her a bit of a toss...and she was gone thinking, forget this.

I don't think I could have held a 75+# dog down like that. I also don't think someone not versed with PP work would have done it with a 55# dog either though.

chimerakennels at February 17, 2011 at 11:31 PM

Ben, I had a dog come at me once. It was about 55# APBT. Of course I had one MAJOR advantage being I had already had experience working dogs...so I used that to my advantage. I presented a target with my left arm for the dog and she went for it. As she did, I esquived the bite and then grabbed the dog by the collar with my right hand as it passed by. Held her to the ground, switched hands on the collar, and then gave it a few jabs to "change her mind." When I let her up I gave her a bit of a toss...and she was gone thinking, forget this.

I don't think I could have held a 75+# dog down like that. I also don't think someone not versed with PP work would have done it with a 55# dog either though.

that is crazy lee, would you say being an expereinced decoy has helped u decide what is the perfect protection dog physcialy? i am about to put in an order on a couple sleeves etc to train my dogs as far as i can..... also look forward to learning to work other dogs....

You are very lucky indeed Lee.You had two Major advantages the knowledge and a collar.lol.I'm not saying a big dog isn't my choice either.Heck  my property/sentry dogs are a giant sch. and abm.IF I had to chose between a good little dog and a good big dog everything being equal I would choose the good big dog, but if I had the choice of a great little dog and a good big dog I would chose the great little dog.I think they take up less space and are more versatile.

IMO, there is no such thing as perfection...for that would require one to be all knowing, all experienced, and all capable in terms of time, finances, luck, etc.

In other words, it would require a god like status that none of us will obtain. When I can't learn anything or experience anything, it will be time for me to die. In reality, I will die long before that happens.

HOWEVER, experience, knowledge, work, finances, & dedication all certainly have increased my knowledge as to what I want in a dog and in terms of equipment. If I could do things over, I wouldn't have bought a lot of the equipment I did buy. Some of the stuff was great and I use it a lot. Some was very good, but not what I needed, and then other stuff wasn't that good at all.

Recently, I sold some equipment on here...much of it beign Danny's at DLKs. The belgium sleevs and the horton sleeves were great for my goals (but I already had my own or others that were very similar). I have some harddog requisites sleeves that I like a lot...but I had one (a shortie 2) that I didn't like. I have a Ray Allen suit that is sufficient, but not perfect for what I want. I certainly have learned from these experiences and that knowledge will help me with my future goals.

As far as the perfect size...there is no perfect size dog. It depends on WHAT ONE NEEDS from the dog. If I was a police officer or a military soldier, I would want a dog 50-80#. Mobility, speed, and endurance are more important than manstopping power as the dog will receive backup. If I wanted a dog to STOP an intruder without help, I would prefer a dog 75-120#...with some variation depending upon the detailed needs of the situation. Body type though is much less important than will.

chimerakennels at February 18, 2011 at 12:44 PM

IMO, there is no such thing as perfection...for that would require one to be all knowing, all experienced, and all capable in terms of time, finances, luck, etc.

 

In other words, it would require a god like status that none of us will obtain. When I can't learn anything or experience anything, it will be time for me to die. In reality, I will die long before that happens.

HOWEVER, experience, knowledge, work, finances, & dedication all certainly have increased my knowledge as to what I want in a dog and in terms of equipment. If I could do things over, I wouldn't have bought a lot of the equipment I did buy. Some of the stuff was great and I use it a lot. Some was very good, but not what I needed, and then other stuff wasn't that good at all.

 

Recently, I sold some equipment on here...much of it beign Danny's at DLKs. The belgium sleevs and the horton sleeves were great for my goals (but I already had my own or others that were very similar). I have some harddog requisites sleeves that I like a lot...but I had one (a shortie 2) that I didn't like. I have a Ray Allen suit that is sufficient, but not perfect for what I want. I certainly have learned from these experiences and that knowledge will help me with my future goals.

 

As far as the perfect size...there is no perfect size dog. It depends on WHAT ONE NEEDS from the dog. If I was a police officer or a military soldier, I would want a dog 50-80#. Mobility, speed, and endurance are more important than manstopping power as the dog will receive backup. If I wanted a dog to STOP an intruder without help, I would prefer a dog 75-120#...with some variation depending upon the detailed needs of the situation. Body type though is much less important than will.

can you tell me in more detail what you meen? as far as equipment go? do some suits or sleeves favor sport dogs etc?

Hey lee not to start an argument? but how much did that police dog weigh that got choked out? I dont think the susspect was to versed in training dogs for pp work...   or maybe it was a breed thing? i doubt a dog like preacher man is getting choked out any time soon lol! man now i got 50 questions i wanna ask but it will start to much debating...............

As far as equipment goes...in training the equipment can be similar, but trial equipment is typically going to use hard sleeves...something we have little use for in realistic training. Also, there are different types of linen materials that suits are made of...french, holland, and syntec. Syntec is very durable, but it is slick and harder to grip...which isn't good for beginning dogs.

As to the how much did the dog weigh that got choked out? I don't know. I heard the story, but I don't know much about it. I believe there were two guys though. I also believe one of the guys was seriously hurt which led to their capture/identification. So, one could argue that dog did his job even though it cost him his life.

As for the rest of your questions...if you really are interested in the answers and not just arguing for pointless reasons...well feel free to ask away. I don't allow things to get out of hand or disrespectful on our forum and I think you have a tendency to be respectful with those that disagree with you.

chimerakennels at February 18, 2011 at 3:04 PM

As far as equipment goes...in training the equipment can be similar, but trial equipment is typically going to use hard sleeves...something we have little use for in realistic training. Also, there are different types of linen materials that suits are made of...french, holland, and syntec. Syntec is very durable, but it is slick and harder to grip...which isn't good for beginning dogs.

As to the how much did the dog weigh that got choked out? I don't know. I heard the story, but I don't know much about it. I believe there were two guys though. I also believe one of the guys was seriously hurt which led to their capture/identification. So, one could argue that dog did his job even though it cost him his life.

 

As for the rest of your questions...if you really are interested in the answers and not just arguing for pointless reasons...well feel free to ask away. I don't allow things to get out of hand or disrespectful on our forum and I think you have a tendency to be respectful with those that disagree with you.

i see, how come hard sleeves are not good for realistic training, well i dont want to start anything, but i think the concept for a swinford bandog speaks for it self, in creating the ultimate family companion..... i meen your only upgrading from what you begun with right?  i dont want to take this conversation into a breed vs breed..... i have interest in your stock just like i do jhonny's stock, i have two dogs from him so i tend to think highly of the dogs like cesar! i meen in a space as small as my living room i am sure cesar is the last dog you would want to go toe to toe with, i heard he has passed  RIP, that dog did alot for your dogs and jhonnys, max etc.. i am sure, i always wondered why u didnt breed him with eclipse to save the masstiff gene but i guess its because u basicaly used his genes to upgrade your stock by creating beast like preacher man, linegbaugh lucile etc.....

I also heard great stuff about titan who is half cesar and one of jhonnys dogs... i hope that i can get my dogs trained up, and i am going to be getting realy into it here as soon as i get my equipment ordered etc... i want to set a decent example with my dogs and make there ancestors proud so to speak,  i think it would do a dog like cesar justice as well, both of my dogs are half cesar and i love that, I love watching the videos of cesar doing civil he is a monster....he makes jhonny look small!  

well wait preacher and lucile came from eclipse right? oops still it was that em mastiff gene

Part 1 of my reply - The equipment.

Some people consider any barrel, bitebar, or compression sleeve to be a "hard" sleeve. I do not. There are certainly some good compression type sleeves out there...but they are not the very hard ones that feel like a helmet covered with jute. No part of the human body or any of the items we wear (besides a helmet) feels like a very hard sleeve except for maybe the top of the skull.

I personally refer to the better "hard" sleeves out there as intermediate sleeves, but in reality, It depends on the manufacturer. IMO, the harddog requisites 2x and 3x are very hard and would fit into the helmet catagoy. The Hardog Requisites cuffs though are very nice though and have some give in it which allows one to use their hard sleeves...but in reality, why would you when there is not real gain from doing so...not for PP work. Some top trainers don't even use hard sleeves in sport dogs except on a trial field.

Instead, use sleeves like the Harddogs Requisites "Chomp," Shortie Lite, and their Shortie Leather Lite (which isn't on their website but is a very nice sleeve). The Shortie Leather Lite is a heavier sleeve than is the standard Shortie Lite sleeve. Their Shortie 0 is beginning to enter what I call a hard sleeve. It might be suitable for a SchH trial sleeve, but I am not one to speak on that. Their X certainly is hard and is as hard as many of the hard SchH trial sleeves, but isn't what I would call a helmet hard sleeve. I suppose one could use the Shortie 0 or X for more advanced/finishing work if one wants to, but when it comes to the limitations of SchH type sleeves being used for PP work...you don't really need anything beyond the Harddog's Requisites Leather Lite. Another good SchH type sleeve is the Horton's compression sleeve. Again, due to its style, some would classify it as a "hard" type sleeve, but I don't...as it isn't too hard for an advanced dog to use when doing routine work. That is a very nice sleeve and perhaps I should have kept the one I recently sold for Danny. If you want to go further with PP work, I would then spend my time working with a full body suit for application work. Anything harder than these sleeves is NOT for daily training and is a trial type specialty sleeve.

Belgium type sleeves are good for young, beginner, and some intermediates. I don't really care for the hard sleeves by Ray Allen sleeves at all, as they have too much out on the end past the hand...and their cuffs will slip up and down their sleeves since they tend don't fit well. IMO, the only decent sleeves Ray Allen carries are their intermediate sleeves...but some good belgium type sleeves will accomplish the same thing as the intermediate Ray Allen sleeves.

Here are the ones I recommend if you want to get some equipment. I were only getting three or four sleeves it would be a belgium sleeve, the Harddog's Requisites Chomp & their Leather Lite, and then maybe the Horton's Compression sleeve. IMO, you don't need any other sleeves for adult dogs. You might need a few puppy sleeves though for young dogs.

Also, get some burlap to roll up and also some tugs & maybe a leg sleeve. You will be well served with a good padded whip and a clatter stick as well. Maybe a muzzle too if the decoy is willing to roll around with a dog on him.

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Part 2 - the dogs.

Ceasar was a good dog. Eclipse was a great dog. Johnny didn't get to meet Eclipse until she was very mature...I think 7+ years, at which time she began slowing down. She was put down when she was 10 after getting cancer in her foot. I never bred her and Caesar because I have ZERO INTEREST in big hairy drooling dogs. The ONLY reason I would have been motivated to breed them together would have been for money. I don't want to get into "money breeding." That would be a distracting intermediate step that I didn't need. Even being direct in my approach, it takes a lot of time and work. I didn't need the distraction of breeding mastiffs, so I will leave that for others to work on. Programs that have too many breeds lack direction and focus.

MY goal is to produce the best family companion guardians I can, so that is how I bred them.

Lucile is Preacher's daughter (Eclipse's grand-daughter) from breeding him to Bullette. Bandit and Gator though are Preacher's sisters.

Awesome....... thx for the reply

I made a few updates in my post above concerning my comments about the Shortie 0 and Shorie X sleeves.